INSULATION
Posted: 17 June 2007 04:07 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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I am interested in several of the kits (e.g. minima vest) but need more information about the differences in insulation.  For instance, the minima vest kit lists 4 climashield insulation and 2 primaloft insulation choices.  Can you provide some information about the 1) the warmth differences between the loft of each and 2) the durability/ease of sewing between them?

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Posted: 18 June 2007 11:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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I’ll take a stab at this:

This is lifted from the site “XP has a stiffer hand, making it more suitable for large panel items like sleeping bags or for apparel where drape is not of primary concern” 

Primaloft Sport comes with a stabilizer, which makes it a lot easier to either searging or sewing to a liner. I thought it drapes well considering the thickness when I worked with it.

Primaloft One packs the most warmth for it’s weight but I haven’t worked with it. I know it needs to be quilted or stabilized to work with. AYCE does sell it quilted however I believe it’s a heaver stabilizer then the sport adding weight.

AYCE did a run of some Primaloft One 3oz and 6oz quilted to momentum90 that seems like the best of all worlds since you would cut out the quilting, serging or zig zag steps when sewing it to a liner. Just cut out and seal edges

I would say if this is your first sewing project like this either go with the cheaper sport or try the Primaloft One/Momentum90

JFF

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Posted: 19 June 2007 01:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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Joe: Thanks for taking that question on for me while I was out and about- I appreciate it.

Primaloft is a short staple insulation and Climashield is a continuous filament insulation.  By virtue of the fibers that make up the insulations, a rule of thumb is that Primaloft is softer and drapes better while Climashield is better able to span large areas with little stabilization.
In general I prefer primaloft for apparel because drape and softness are important to me, while Climashield’s main strength - the ability to span large areas with little stabilization - doesn’t really come into play.

That said, this new breed of continuous filament insulations are a big improvement over earlier iterations like delta (clo .68) and especially 3D (clo .63). 

For a given insulation, the higher the basis weight the warmer it will be.  You can determine the total CLO for the item by multiplying the basis weight by the clo number.  This will also allow you to compare and contrast between insulations.  Combat is a Berry compliant version of XP with a clo value of .78.

Here’s a reprint of an earlier post I put together that will step you through using CLO numbers to compare and contrast insulations
=======================

The whole point of clo numbers is that they are an objective, reproducible, and independent rating of the thermal properties of an insulation. Using clo numbers you can compare and contrast the thermal efficiency of insulations.

Lets consider a case that zeros out the impact of other factors besides clo in an attempt to determine if it takes a lot of fabric and a big percentage difference in the performance of the insulation to affect a significant performance/weight change. Here’s a concrete example of the impact of three insulations, 3D, XP, and Primaloft Sport, chosen because all things other than the clo value will be for all practical purposes equal, and because the project uses a modest amount of fabric (2 sq yds).

My Maxima Jacket pattern in size large uses almost exactly two square yards of insulation: 2.02 square yards.
If you use a 3 oz basis weight of XP and a 3 oz basis weight of 3D, the total clo for each case is as follows:
3D: 3 oz * .63 = 1.89
XP: 3 oz * .77 = 2.31

This is a 22% difference in the total clo of the jacket: (2.31 - 1.89)/1.89 * 100%. All other aspects of the construction would be more or less equal: both are continuous filament and would require the same amount of quilting (only at panel edges), and both jackets would be the same weight since the same basis weight of insulation was used (3 oz) and assuming you make the other parts of the jacket from identical materials. 22% is a pretty significant amount.

Compare this to the same case where a short staple insulation, Primaloft sport, is used instead of continuous filament in the same basis weight as before (3 oz)
Primaloft sport: 3 oz * .74 = 2.22 total clo. There isn’t much difference between the total clo of the primaloft sport and the xp (4%), but there is a pretty significant difference between it and the 3D (17%).

In the case of primaloft sport, the official guidelines for stabilizing it call for unquilted areas to be an area of 2 square feet or less. For our example, the jacket, this requires three quilt lines: one across the back at the armpits, and one on each of the two sleeves. I have Maximas I use regularly made from primaloft sport and XP that were made specifically so that I could subjectively size up the two insulations use in apparel, all other things being equal. Three lines of quilting is quite modest, and I didn’t notice any impact. I don’t notice any difference in warmth of the two jackets which is what I would expect given that the clo numbers are about the same. This further supports the idea that for all practical purposes the methods of construction are the same, making a comparison on a clo to clo basis of the two jackets a reasonable thing to do.
I *did* notice, as I have before, that Primaloft sport is much softer and feels better in a jacket than the stiffer continuous filament insulations.

Lets look at it from a different angle to determine the weight impact of the three insulations for a given clo value, all other things assumed to be equal.

In a size Large of the maxima jacket, the weight of the jacket exclusive of the insulation is about seven ounces.
In working with synthetics the following clo-warmth chart will help:
total clo approx temp rating
2 40’s
4 20’s
6 single digits

If I wanted a jacket to be warm down around freezing, I’d need a total clo of about 3*.
For XP, this means I’d want to come up with 3/.77=3.9 ounces of insulation per square yard.
For 3D, this means I’d want 3/.63 = 4.8 oz of insulation per square yard
For Primaloft sport, I’d want 3 / .74 = 4 oz of insulation per square yard.
(* I realize that the approx temp chart is subjective as it is based on my own experience with synthetics. You can subjectively call total clo of 3 any temp you want, it won’t affect the rest of the argument)
Given that there are about 2 square yards of insulation required for the project, this means that the insulation in the jacket would weigh:
XP: 2sq yds * 3.9oz/sq yd = 7.8 oz
3D: 2sq yds * 4.8 oz/sq yd = 9.6
Sport: 2sq yds* 4 oz/sq yd= 8 oz

Lets add the various insulation weights to the base weight of the jacket in size L to get the projected weight of the jacket with the different fills:
XP: 14.8 oz
3D: 16.6 oz
Sport: 15 oz

So by going with either a high efficiency continuous filament insulation or primaloft sport as compared to 3D you save 1.6 - 1.8 oz respectively .

Or, looking at it another way
A Maxima made from XP is 12% lighter than one made of 3D: (16.6 - 14.8)/14.8 * 100%
A Maxima made from Sport is 11% lighter than one made of 3D: (16.6 - 15)/15 * 100%
A Maxima made from XP is 1.4% lighter than one made from Sport: (15 - 14.8) /14.8 * 100%

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Posted: 01 May 2008 12:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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need2boat - 18 June 2007 11:19 PM

I’ll take a stab at this:

This is lifted from the site “XP has a stiffer hand, making it more suitable for large panel items like sleeping bags or for apparel where drape is not of primary concern” 

Primaloft Sport comes with a stabilizer, which makes it a lot easier to either searging or sewing to a liner. I thought it drapes well considering the thickness when I worked with it.

Primaloft One packs the most warmth for it’s weight but I haven’t worked with it. I know it needs to be quilted or stabilized to work with. AYCE does sell it quilted however I believe it’s a heaver stabilizer then the sport adding weight.

AYCE did a run of some Primaloft One 3oz and 6oz quilted to momentum90 that seems like the best of all worlds since you would cut out the quilting, serging or zig zag steps when sewing it to a liner. Just cut out and seal edges

I would say if this is your first sewing project like this either go with the cheaper sport or try the Primaloft One/Momentum90

JFF

So I don’t have to do any quilting with the Primaloft One?  Hmmmm,  I want to make a quilt similar to a Ray-Quilt and am not certain what materials to buy.  If I just make a square quilt with a foot box (like a JRB), what would be involved if I use primaloft one, and momentum?  I guess I could make a Ray-Way, and skip the quilting step.

Could I just stitch the primaloft onto the edges of the momentum and be done?  I’ve made down quilts in the past, so what would the amount of work be compared to a down quilt?

Basically, I am looking for something easy to make, warm, light weight, durable and soft.  I am willing to spend a little money for quality materials, as long as it is still fairly easy to make.  Sorry I am so wordy…..  Thanks.

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Posted: 01 May 2008 01:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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You’d need to check with the Big man: AYCE and see if he’s still got the Primaloft one that’s pre quilted. If so that would simplify things a bit for you.

JFF

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Posted: 01 May 2008 01:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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The PL1 product referred to is different from what is currently available.  Right now you can get 1.8 oz Primaloft One prequilted to two layers of carrier scrim.  Because each layer of scrim weighs around four tenths of an ounce per square yard, that type of prequilting adds close to an ounce per square yard to the insulation.  For this reason, it would work best in small projects where the amount of materials required is small but the benefit from prequilting is large, like a balaclava, or insulated gloves/hat.

PL1 is a tough material to work with.  I always feel bad for the folks who try to stabilize it with yarn loops which work with most other things like continuous filament insulations.  This ruins more insulation projects than anything else as in short order the stuff tears, leaving you with a ball of useless fluff.  For this reason I don’t sell off-the-roll PL1.

The official guidelines for PL1 are 6” areas of unquilted vs 2 square feet for Sport.  For this reason it’s a lot of work to use short staple insulations in bags and quilts.  There are techniques, like seam stabilization used in the apparel kits, that will work with quilts too and aren’t much harder than making the down quilt you mentioned you’ve already completed.  There’s no doubt that the short staple stuff is softer and more compressible than c.f. insulations, but the other side of that coin is that there’s less physical loft and more quilting zero-loft areas. 

For a few years now I’ve been working on ways to make Primaloft One and Sport work better for large panel items like quilts, and the Momentum-3 oz PL1-Momentum and Momentum-6 oz PL1-scrim products came out of that effort (sadly you missed out on that initial run which is now gone).  I was pretty impressed with how easy it made it to pull off a pl1 project that’ll survive a washing or being pulled out of a stuffed pack.

There will be more of those types of PL1 and Sport prequilts coming as soon as I can work up enough capital to get it done.  Shipping and freight costs these days are a killer for bulky things like rolls of uncompressed insulation. 

Unless you’ve got a specific design parameter like pack real estate or softness that would require one of the Primalofts, you’d be better off sticking with the continuous filament insulations for quilts and bags.

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Posted: 01 May 2008 02:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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OK, thanks.

I think I will go with the Climashield Combat.  Now as far as momentum90, is there really much benefit over 1.1oz rip-stop?

PS:
Sorry for hijacking your thread hodgsonm!!! :)

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Posted: 01 May 2008 03:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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natureboy - 01 May 2008 02:14 PM

OK, thanks.

I think I will go with the Climashield Combat.  Now as far as momentum90, is there really much benefit over 1.1oz rip-stop?

You don’t save much on weight (@1.05 vs 1.25 finished weight for momentum vs 1.1), but the DWR finishing is really great on the Momentum and the high thread count means the Momentum doesn’t need to be as calendared as the 1.1.  Pretty much everybody that ponies up the extra cash to upgrade to Momentum reports that it was worth it. 

The way I look at it is this: if you think you can pull off your project well enough to only make one, then it is worth it to go with the best materials. 

If you want to split the difference, put Momentum MR on the shell and 1.1 black 2nds on the liner.

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